Amazing Block’s Podcast: TOKENIZING EVERYTHING!

July 20, 2021 / Interview, Technology

Host
Welcome to the 34th episode of Tokenizing Everything, our weekly interview series with thought leaders in the blockchain industry. Today’s guest is David Orban, managing advisor at Beyond Enterprizes. Before we begin, I have to mention that all opinions are solely personal, and do not reflect the opinion of Amazing Blocks, Beyond Enterprises, or any other event-related parties. So it’s a pleasure to have you here today David, how are you?

David Orban
Thank you very much for having me. I am wonderful.

Host
Perfect, then I would say let’s dive right into it, would you like to start by just giving a brief overview of who you are and what your background is in the tech space, so to say.

David Orban
I studied physics, originally, but I didn’t want to be an experimental physicist, one of 10,000 people working at CERN or another X accelerator. I wasn’t really smart enough to be a theoretical physicist, bringing the next revolution in the grand unification theories of supersymmetry, or those kinds of things. I entered the field of artificial intelligence as a developer originally, but then I was very attracted to being an entrepreneur. I started companies both in Europe and in the US, building them, scaling them, failing them, selling them, and so on, and we are still talking about the previous Millennium here, right?

Coming a little bit closer to the present time, 12 years ago, I was part of the team that designed Singularity University at the NASA Research Park, in California. There we study and teach exponential technologies and how they impact business or our everyday lives. Based on that experience, I published the Network Society Manifesto that articulated how decentralization is a natural consequence of exponentially advancing technologies in many sectors independent from each other, whether we are talking about solar in energy, 3d printing, and digital manufacturing, peer to peer learning, and so on. In finance too, when Bitcoin presented itself, actually, for me, it wasn’t a surprise, it was a very pleasant fulfillment of something that I was already expecting to happen. I have participated in Bitcoin since the very beginning, as well as Ethereum, and have worked together with Brad Yasar, the founder of Beyond Enterprizes for many years on many projects until I joined as managing advisor.

Host
Thanks so much for this overview. Very interesting. I see a very diverse CV, right? It’s hard to sing out one aspect, but I think that’s also generally the beauty of the tech space right? So, what struck out, when I kind of did my research on you before this interview, was that you have the say “What is the question that I should be asking?”, and I would be curious to hear what is the kind of the background behind this. How did you attain this? Let’s say an analytical attitude towards your day-to-day business and generally your life.

David Orban
My motto is a very good icebreaker, you can use it when you have in front of you someone that you are negotiating with or you want to hire someone and you are having a job interview with them or even if you are alone, and you have a new challenge, maybe a new job position or you are in a field that is unfamiliar to you. I find that the mental attitude that you acquire by going meta and rather than having a fixed list that you just track off because you believe that the list is exhaustive and sufficient, this simple question opens the doors to many new avenues of exploration. It stimulates the other person if you ask someone else, or it stimulates your ability to be more creative about what are the things that you should pay attention to.

Of course, we are now in a wonderful, really golden era of knowledge exploration, that is what the internet gave us. We are also about to enter a new era where AI systems are going to assist us in formulating smarter and smarter questions. If you made a query that was formulated like a question on Google recently, you may have noticed that it not only gives you an answer, but it lists new questions that you could be asking, and that is extremely powerful. So then the question is going to become “what are the more useful ways that those lists of questions can be generated?” So for me, it is very clear that we are on an unending journey, and this journey of exploration, experimentation, value creation, wealth generation is part of what makes an open and free economy so powerful. If we have to go ahead and create initiatives, projects, Enterprizes, that can evolve positively in such a powerful landscape, then we have to have powerful tools to help us. I have my own set of tools and that little motto which is a very dear component of the toolset.

Host
Yeah, I think it helps, right? Because it also allows you to always kind of adjust to the topic, the challenge that’s ahead, and or the person that’s in front of you because it’s always important to understand the reasoning behind something. Whether it’s technology or human beings it’s still a kind of sometimes similar logic. So another aspect that I find interesting is that you kind of birth this, the saying of Jolting Technologies? What does this mean, as I think it’s quite an interesting perspective, but also a very auspicious or futuristic mind in regards to how we view technology and the influence that we’ll have in the future.

David Orban
Many of the people listening to the podcast or watching the video will be familiar with what is called Moore’s Law. Formulated over 50 years ago by Gordon Moore, one of the founders of Intel, based on literally a handful of data points, this was an ambitious prophecy. Gordon Moore said that if we made the effort we could squeeze in several transistors on a given area that would double every two years. This more or less held for the next 50 years, which is amazing, it is completely unexpected, and it is what has powered the increasing influence of information technologies in our world, whether we are talking about our computers on our desks or notebooks, the supercomputers in the data centers or the supercomputers in our pockets.

I asked myself: “What if we looked at Moore’s law as a specific instance, of not only other exponential phenomena?”, and there are of course many, including the pandemic that influenced so much of our lives the past year and a half. But what would a generalization further of the trends underlying exponential technologies be? I found several data sets that are not based on a constant rate of acceleration, like the constant doubling of Moore’s law but are based on an increasing grade of acceleration. In physics, there is a term for variable acceleration, which is a jolt, which is the mathematical term for describing a non constant or variable acceleration.

I published the paradigm of Jolting Technologies that describes this; an example is artificial intelligence where, 4 years ago, Stanford University together with open AI published the report in which they said: “Up until 2012, we had AI following Moore’s law. From 2012 onwards for the past eight years, almost 10 years, we are seeing AI doubling every four months instead of every two years”. So they are designing like a broken line into segments, and I told them “That’s wrong. What you are observing is a progressively increasing rate of acceleration in AI and a progressively shrinking rate of doubling”. Lo and behold, I was proven right because a year ago the CEO of Nvidia published their data and they are showing AI doubling in power every two months. So from two years to four months, to two months. Imagine the world when AI will be doubling in power every month, every week, every hour: well, it is very hard to imagine, and it is even harder for a business to adapt, it is hard to understand what are going to be the consequences in our ability to execute a project to structure a business model to update and adapt our regulations and regulatory frameworks. When not only blockchain, not only AI, but quantum computing, synthetic biology, and so many other areas will operate as they are already under the paradigm of Jolting Technologies.

Host
I think it’s something that is probably going to be around for the entire evolution of technology in the future, and I’ll educate people about this in my environment in the future, too. So props to you at this stage for this very knowledge, the analytical, but also the neutral kind of approach and also realistic approach to technology in regards to the influence that it will inherit in the future. But speaking about one of these several technologies that are currently reshaping our world blockchain, you mentioned, you’ve been in the Bitcoin space since the early days. You were the first person actually to own Ether during the launch. People always describe a certain wow moment. so to say that made them excited about the possibilities of blockchain. Others describe more of a gradual path to really understanding and then also loving blockchain. What was it for you? Was there a certain moment where it just clicked and you realized: “Okay, is this going to be the future”? Or was it more of a gradual approach to this?

David Orban
Beyond Enterprizes, was founded in 2012 and it had the opportunity and the privilege of both participating in the development and the deployment, as well as investing and incubating some of the most important projects in the blockchain world: the base protocol or sciencing corporated, or bank or blockchain capital…so many that they are too many to list.

There are new projects that are as important, maybe even more important: EQIFI which represents a fully licensed bank coupled with the DeFI products, so that you can take advantage of both sides of this fervor sent experimentation in the world of finance, or HIVE which is a platform and a protocol for coordinating freelancers with a dispute resolution mechanism, as well as a launch platform for vertical decentralized workforce coordination. You can think of Uber and a platform for realizing a specific specialized vertical Uber.

So, for me what is important is that even though I have been in this area for 10 years, we are really at the very, very beginning. For me, tokenization goes almost as deep as talking about digital physics. My friend Stephen Wolfram published his latest book called “The search for a fundamental theory of physics”, and he looks at literally how our space-time could be digitized, and how both space and time could emerge as a consequence of those laws that he is trying to find. I am not saying that blockchain is at the base of our reality, but I am saying that as we progress, and as we proceed in implementing and analyzing and delivering the promise of blockchain and tokenization, across many sectors, or every sector of the economy, and our society, in we will create an enormous amount of wealth and opportunities. The zero-sum game of trading and hedge funds, where you can only win if someone else loses because that is the trade that is being closed is a very small part of what is going to happen.

One of my favorite questions is when I deliver a keynote, or I am at the keynote Q&A, and someone asks me: “Well, but what about the scalability of Bitcoin?” or “Is Ethereum staking ever going to work?” I tell them: “Listen, I have friends who are working as we speak on the colonization of the solar system, and they know that we will have swarms of intelligent robots mining the asteroids, within the next 20-30 years”. I don’t know whether it is going to be Bitcoin, or Ethereum, or whatever else, but do you believe that as these swarms of intelligent robots have to negotiate and come to a consensus around the type of resources in energy, transportation, and financial resources as well, to build and sustain that kind of new economy? Are they going to be using checkbooks? Are they going to be using credit cards? Are they going to be using banknotes or wire transfers? And just so you know, painting that picture is ridiculous. We understand none of that is going to be the likelihood that it is going to be something that is tokenized, that is based on blockchain, that is based on a consensus algorithm that doesn’t require the wet-signature, and the sending via courier of some agreement. That is clear and once you put it that way, it is clear that blockchain and tokenization have a huge future in front of them, and this future designs an economy that is vastly larger than what we are seeing today.

Host
Yeah, I think it’s always interesting to speak with people that are maybe in the early stages of their blockchain journey, and their risks that don’t necessarily always see the full potential of it. And it’s good to foster education and that aspect, right? What I find interesting in general is you’re the chairman of the supervisory council at Singularity net, so you are actively dealing with the topic of AI or AGI. What I find interesting also is how this artificial general intelligence and intelligence in the future will leverage tokens actually for trust systems for reward within the ecosystem. So that’s just something that I think will accelerate and disrupt the entire world In the future.

David Orban
There are some thorny, open mathematical, ethical, philosophical questions around the next phase of development in a technological civilization. And these open questions have existential importance because we hope that humanity will have a place in a world that is radically transformed by artificial general intelligence, that pursues their own goals and their objectives and look out in the universe and see, with curiosity and fascination, how much there is to do and to understand this is today, just a hope. So, what is very important, and the reason why projects like singularity net, have this tremendous responsibility is to design and deploy systems that can deliver on that hope, that can implement and structure a future civilization where ag eyes and humanity in its diversity and in its way of evolving can coexist. And this is a very concrete and, and very deep responsibility, and I am honored and privileged to be involved in the project.

Host
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’ve been following them. I have to say no financial advice, right. But since the early days, it’s very auspicious. And I’ll see a lot of challenges ahead that need to be coped with but definitely on the right path so far, I think. So maybe going to do the crypto community question that they always ask every week. I thought they did it. Quite interestingly, you have the saying that technology, in general, is redefining society, entrepreneurship, and ultimately the meaning of human beings of the 21st century. And they kind of change this to basically, how is blockchain redefining society, entrepreneurship, and ultimately, the meaning of being a human in the 21st century.

David Orban
We are social animals, and since the beginning when our tribes were roaming the African savanna, we had to develop abilities to perceive, to analyze information to decide quickly: was the other group of humans that we were about to meet was friendly, or an enemy? Based on those life or death decisions, through hundreds of 1000s of years, our evolution allowed us to then accumulate knowledge acumen technologies, and evolving societies and together with that evolution also improve the decision making systems that lead to peaceful cooperation or deadly conflict in the 21st century, I think it is clear to more and more people that we have to make every effort possible to avoid decisions that lead to a deadly conflict very simply because, with nuclear weapons, the alternative of failing to avoid that can lead to a total collapse of civilization, the planet will be fine in another million years, or 10 million or 100 million, there will be other things that biological evolution will create. But in the meantime, humanity’s dream of keeping and exploring will have been shattered.

One of the crucial promises of blockchain is to yield novel governance systems, novel consensus mechanisms. It is also an important source in the opposition that blockchain finds weird regulators that cannot conceive of an alternative that cannot realize that the limits and the constraints within which they were designed and they live are very subjective and very temporary. The very concept of the nation-state is just 400 or 500 years old, and the twain lottery tickets, and rolling of the dice that each of us lives under the genetic lottery, on one hand of who were our parents, and the geographical lottery on the other. Later, we have been born in a high-income country or a low-income country, define 90% of our lives, only a few can escape, and we call them lucky, these constraints. With the help of blockchain on one hand, and with the help of other technologies, like genetics, and synthetic biology, or the understanding of the mechanisms of messenger RNA, and others CRISPR very exciting, which contributed to saving us, those that made it from the pandemic, at least for now. These are going to transform the world, we are looking at a world where the freedom to make choices with unbounded opportunities can be realized by billions of people who in the past, and for many still today, wouldn’t have been able to make those choices.

The view that I hope more and more regulators will embrace is that of the proactionary principle, as opposed to the precautionary principle which, unfortunately, is included in the Lisbon Treaty that regulates the way the European Union works, and which tasks an impossible proof of scientifically and technologically proving that new technology will have no harm as it is being introduced in society, and that is impossible. The proactionary principle in the opposite looks at the future benefit and it says: “If we can expect an overwhelming future benefit, then it is our responsibility to accelerate the rolling out of that technology.” That is what blockchain represents. and that is what regulators should realize, rather than being extra cautious, and pretending that everything is a scam, that everything is a fraud, that everyone is only out there to get out from their own purvey, they can look at a future. That is exciting, that is inclusive, that is empowering and enfranchising for so many people, and I hope they will be able to make that leap.

Host
Yeah, definitely. And when you say that regulators are going to play a crucial part, and I think right now is a very challenging time for this because there’s a lot of noise from the regulatory side. The upcoming Mica regulations in the EU, which will affect the token economy. on that level. You know, there’s a lot of talk in regards to how regulators address finances decentralized entity structure. So it’s a very interesting time when it comes to this. And it’s going to be crucial in regards to how the regulators address this, obviously, then we have now kind of defined the regulatory side as one of the key challenges for accelerating blockchain adoption. Which other challenges would you mention, because personally, just from my perspective, I would think that education is one other core aspect that you need to foster, but happy to hear your kind of take on that?

David Orban
I agree. And initiatives like your podcast series, form a crucial role in education, seeing people here together with us in this live recording, and then looking at the statistics of this podcast, or others, and YouTube channels, it is wonderful to see that anyone who just takes one step in the direction of educating themselves finds very, very rich resources available. And then, after the first step, they can make the second step, the third step, and as soon as they want to, they can then turn around and share the knowledge that they have acquired on the internet. And the magic of the internet today is that indeed, it will aggregate an audience that is exactly proportional and corresponds to the level of knowledge and the type of message that the person is sharing.

Now, there is a mirror to that effort. Because if you told me that I need to educate myself, because my car actually and this is true, is broken down in front of the gate outside my garden, and in my home and in Italy, where I am right now, rather than in New York, where I would be aware I took refuge from the pandemic and not complaining, Italy is a fantastic place if you can choose where to pass a pandemic, and you told me: “Hey, David, you have to get your act together. You just have to educate yourself and learn to repair your car” I would like to tell you: “Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t have the time, I don’t have the willingness, I don’t have the tools, I don’t have the talent”. I don’t even mention the fact that I don’t have the passion for those kinds of things, that is why we have on one hand specialized people, car mechanics or whatever the problem with my car is that can do that, rather than me. And we have cars that have standardized interfaces and are fairly easy to use, and they are getting easier and easier.

In the blockchain, we have to recognize that is the case and that should be the case. Yes. We have enthusiasts who have been happy to compile Bitcoin code and run minor software on Arduino cards and do crazy stuff, which I remember doing years ago, but it is unreasonable to expect quotation marks from normal people to learn the same. So Coinbase deserves the success they’ve had even if purists complain that Coinbase is centralized. And since you don’t own the private keys to the Bitcoin that you hold on Coinbase they are not your Bitcoin, not your keys not your coins. The responsibility is of the specialists are of the practitioners to make sure that whether we are talking about something as simple as buying Bitcoin on an exchange, or we are talking about something a little more complicated as participating in a DeFi transaction, or we are talking about something still largely unexplored as creating a DAO and modeling a business entity, or even wondering what the successor to the double-entry bookkeeping will be in a world of tokenized. Transactions? Well, there are going to be very natural growing waves of adoption and inclusion. And we cannot complain that there aren’t billions of people using Bitcoin or Ethereum.

Today, there cannot be there shouldn’t be if there were, it would be too early. And it is inconceivable billions of people don’t care about those things we care about. They are not ready to get to the level of specialized knowledge that is today required to embrace Bitcoin. Now, whether it is Bitcoin, whether it is Ethereum, the trend is unstoppable. So is it going to be iPhone 15, or iPhone 16? It is guaranteed that sooner or later, billions of people using their smartphones, whether iOS or Android or something else, are going to participate in blockchain transactions with a wonderful decentralized consensus mechanism, and they will own their private keys. And they will do all of those things without realizing just as when I get in my car, and I drive somewhere, I do not worry about the synchronization of the turbo injector or whatever else the engine is doing with me not even realizing. So we cannot blame the people who say, wait a minute. That’s not for me. We cannot accuse them of wanting to be ignorant, the responsibility is ours, to make what we are building radically easier to use, to the point that it disappears, and they don’t even have to worry about it.

Host
You mentioned this because you also think this is going to be true, right? To foster dimension reduction, we need much more intuitive tools in general and tools that need to be created by practitioners, as you mentioned, right? And in that regard, people always kind of compare the evolution of blockchain to the internet, right? They say: “Okay, if you ask someone on the street what is the internet today” most people will also struggle in regards to explaining what the internet is. But then I also know that you have a kind of a slight, sometimes different approach where you say, okay, blockchain may even take a step further, could you maybe elaborate regarding the influence of blockchain in comparison to the internet will have or may have in the future.

David Orban
The sign of maturity is when you can stop being a geek and still use the tool. When the internet was in its infancy, you had to be a geek. The TCP IP protocol, which is underneath everything we are doing, was not standard. You had to install it on the computers and then you had to configure it. email attachment, Which is now trivial, or attaching an image to a Facebook post or anywhere else. Well, back then all these transport protocols couldn’t understand and didn’t understand what those attachments were. And you had to manually encode and decode images that were represented as characters at the tail end of the email message that you would be sending. So the first sign of blockchain and Bitcoin are Ethereum, whatever else again, maturity is going to be when the addresses are going to disappear. And we are seeing a sign that the crypto domains where dot crypto or dot ether, or many others, actually allow people to send each other cryptocurrency without having to worry about the addresses. And that is a very good first sign.

The birth of internet companies like Amazon, or eBay, or others, came together with the birth of many other internet companies that died. And today we’ll look with an almost unavoidable survivor bias to the success of Amazon and proudly declare that the success of or the triumph even of e-commerce was unavoidable. But at the time when Amazon was born, the vast majority of people didn’t believe that they could succeed. They didn’t believe that people would order things on the internet, rather than going to a store. Yesterday, my wife, or the day before yesterday, my wife ordered a pair of shoes on Amazon. And then the day after the shoes arrived, and she’s very happy. And I told her, isn’t it funny that you ordered something as intimate as personal as a pair of shoes on the internet without ever touching them without ever trying them on and you are so satisfied with the mindset of 20 years ago, that would have been inconceivable.

When people on one hand point the finger at the various projects and say that most of them will die, most of them will not succeed. That is not only a trivial observation, it is natural for them to die, they are not going far enough. because traditionally It is said that 99 out of 100 startups fail, not enough 999 out of 1000 must fail. Otherwise, we are not experimenting enough, we are not daring enough. And the relative ease with which a crypto project can start is fantastic. I do not care about scammers, scammers have no evolutionary role, the knot represents a thin layer of freedom to commit a crime in a society that has not become totalitarian. When there are no scammers, it is a bad sign. It means that you live in a society that is so fearful that it cannot afford to have a few people who are not better and the only way they can survive is to commit a crime. But then, we can and we should allow any incentive to experiment as much experimentation as possible. And that is what blockchain together allows. And only after we carry out all the failed experiments, all the pets.com, or all the failed At home delivery, fresh food.com experiments that absorbed billions of dollars and went nowhere will we find what is truly changing the world. And I expect that this is going to happen with blockchain and tokenization. And after the fact, we will just do the list and make some of the network value of the successful projects. Let’s see, in 10 years, we will be looking at a total value that is larger than the value of the internet companies today. When we look at the unicorns, well, we will be talking about deca corns, and the deca corns are the former startups that are worth more than $10 billion. And if today, we have a few internet companies that are worth more than a trillion dollars, we will be looking at companies that can be worth more than a quadrillion dollars. And what those companies will do well, I gave one example: they will mind the asteroids. What else? Well, a gazillion. Thanks. And I would love to keep exploring, and I am an enthusiast who sticks to be doing what I do as managing advisor of Beyond Enterprizes because we are exploring what is possible on this fantastic frontier.

Host
Yeah, definitely. I think technology has so many different aspects that will disrupt our lives in the future. And it may be hard to make concrete, estimates will detail but I think we are assured that it will definitely have such a big impact in the future as well as but coming to the end of today’s conversation, which has been very insightful, and you’re already way above the anticipated time, but that’s okay. I think you have so much insight, details and information in regards to space. I have one last question that I always ask my guests and I know it’s quite difficult to give a definite answer to it. But it’s still always interesting to see the different perspectives and that question is where do you see blockchain and tokenization in 10 years from now.

David Orban
We can and we should look at network value, what appropriately is termed the market cap of Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies, they represent a shift in economic value. But, as I also said, the economy is not a closed system, we are also adding to the economy. So, as blockchain and tokenization grow, Soon, we will realize that the countries that are more favorable to it have a better ability to grow their GDP and to build opportunities for their people. Similarly, to how there are today companies that have an insufficient penetration of broadband internet, for example or an unreliable electric grid, and they are unable to participate in the modern world, to the degree that they could and they should, but a further component is going to be which I already mentioned, that the geographical subdivisions in nations will become more and more untenable, ridiculous, arbitrary, recognized as unjust.

The free association of participants in ambitious, world-changing projects will come from individuals in remote and distributed themes that we are already seeing during the pandemic. Every company was forced to run an experiment that they didn’t want to have, and realize that indeed, people can work from home as well as they could in an office. And many are now finding those workers not to want to go back in the office, not to subject themselves to the hour or two hours per day commute, which is completely useless to collaborate, both within the organization, as well as outside the organization with customers and suppliers. So these trends are going to become stronger and stronger over the next 10 years. And maybe one of the most important questions that we have to ask ourselves is geopolitical, what we mistakenly call mining, and I wrote an article in Bitcoin magazine, I think, in 2014, where I offered an alternative metaphor for the crucial activity of securing the transactions on the Bitcoin network, I said that we should call it instead which, instead of mining, we should call it weaving, because weaving designs rich tapestry of collaborative effort. And that collaboration of the weavers is what secures the transactions that are the threads going across the woven textile, and the tapestry emerging represents the second then third layer applications on top. Well, nobody cared about my metaphor, even though I do believe that it is far superior to mining.

Whether it is mining or weaving, what it represents, is an unstoppable disruption to the Petrodollar. And together with the economically unbeatable reality of solar energy, which is itself geographically distributed to the very existence of one of the last remnants of 20th century geopolitics, the 10th, which is the flow of oil from the Middle East, across the world. Because when we have data centers we have Bitcoin mining or weaving all over the world. And we have solar panels, generating energy or storing energy in the form of Bitcoin, which can be seamlessly transferred as if we were transferring energy across continents, then the trillions of dollars that the United States currently spends to support the petrodollar with military effort is not only useless but losing.

The question is if we have seen the collapse of the Roman empire that did not go so well, if you were in the dark ages in Europe, for the next 500 years after, or we see the collapse of the British Empire that went a little bit better, if you look at it, from the point of view of, of a Gandhi, that can kick out the Brits, and there are conflicts, of course, but not a major war around it. The question is, how will the United States react to the demise of the Petrodollar and of the role that it has had for almost 100 years in supporting the US economy and the United States as a nation, the difference being that they have by the know the number let’s say to round it up 15,000 nuclear bombs, right. So, it is very, very important to help and to assure us that it is going to be okay. That it doesn’t have to worry that embracing blockchain and bracing, solar energy embracing widespread installation Have Bitcoin mining and weaving facilities all across its territory, as well as everywhere else is green going to lead to incredible benefits to everyone, both inside and outside of the US, and that they don’t have to fight tooth and nail and unending wars, to maintain the status quo. Because it cannot be maintained, it won’t be maintained. And the new geopolitical world order is going to be based on blockchain and tokenization. And it is going to be very different from what we have seen for the past 50 to 100 years. But we have to work hard to make sure that the transition is not under severe conflict. It is not under bloody wars and revolutions like it have been in the past.

Host
Yeah, Thanks, David. So much. I think this is a very interesting closing word, though and I fully agree with you that defining securing the Bitcoin network or kind of validating transactions, right, as mining is kind of a misconception In my opinion, too. Because I realize it, especially when people are new to this space, it’s always hard to explain, okay, it’s not just like, traditional mining, right? So weaving is something I’ll keep on using to explain it. It’s a good story. So again, also props to you in that regard, and generally it was a real pleasure to speak with you about a lot of very interesting topics we touched on and yeah, I hope you enjoyed it as well. And I’m happy to tell you in the future, again, when we can discuss what the future of E 2.0 holds, right?

David Orban
Thank you very much for inviting me and I am happy to respond to any comment or question. From anyone watching this recording, I am very easy to find. Just put my name in your favorite search engine. And you will be able to reach me on every end of any platform. And I will be thrilled to engage and answer comments and questions that may come up.

Host
Perfect. Yeah, thanks so much. In regards to the listener, thanks also to tuning whether it was the live show, whether it was on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple, or any other channel where this podcast is published. If you have any questions in regards to tokenization in general, or blockchain, I’m sure you can reach out to David and me and yeah, you know where to find us and looking forward to next week. Thank you, guys. Bye-bye.